Here’s a response to Adrian:

Adrian claims ALL THE FOUNDING FATHER’S WERE DEIST AND HUMANIST:

Thanks for the correction. I must have confused the ‘In God we Trust’ with ‘One nation Under God’. Swapped the Pledge with that on the dollar. Either way, the results are the same. Simple mistake.

If anything, my quotation is probably better as a mistake. Although the coinage says ‘In God we Trust’, and was coined in the 1900’s, you reminded me of the Creators/God’s mentioning in the Declaration. Since I’m guessing your point of “This was coined only in the 1900’s and there’s nothing before to suggest a heritage of God in Government,” I guess I’ll leave you with a piece of the introduction and the preamble of the Declaration. Here, late 1700’s, God’s role in being the source of our civil rights and liberties is clear, as it’s used as the presupposition to what rights we’re entitled to and thus provide reasoning to breaking away from mother England’s rule. It’s also a single creator/god, so it knocks any form of polytheism our the window.

“he separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,”

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ”

I wouldn’t say that the supreme court is the authority on history on our nation, but seeing we’re talking about law, and law is sewn into history, I don’t see the problem with citing historical court cases that justify the use of God in government, and it’s role there-of. Last time I checked, supreme court cases were part of history, and since they interrupted the law at a point in history, they reflect the mouth of the nation in it’s interpretation.

There is no SUPREME authority of our nation (minus the Constitution). Our system of checks and balances is placed so there never will be. This nation was NOT founded merely my Deists and Secular Humanist. Although they may have made up a few of those at the constitutional convention, it wasn’t the bulk.

Three documents probably stand as the ‘supreme authority’ of the land. The second is void, so attention is placed on the first and third: The Declaration, The Articles of Confederation (void), and the Constitution. There were 95 Senators and Representatives in the First Federal Congress. If one combines the total number of signatures on the Declaration, the Articles of Confederation and the Constitution with the non-signing Constitutional Convention delegates, and then adds to that sum the number of congressmen in the First Federal Congress, one obtains a total of 238 “slots” or “positions” in these groups which one can classify as “Founding Fathers” of the United States. Because 40 individuals had multiple roles (they signed multiple documents and/or also served in the First Federal Congress), there are 204 unique individuals in this group of “Founding Fathers.”

Let us look at the signers shall we? Before let me quote you: “This nation was founded by DEISTS and SECULAR HUMANIST”. A direct comment like this suggest that you’re stating 100% of the founding fathers were either Secular Humanists or Deists. We now look at the religious affiliations of those who signed:

Religious Affiliation
of U.S. Founding Fathers (First)

# of
Founding
Fathers (Second)

% of
Founding
Fathers (Third)

Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL 204

That includes George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, John Hancock, James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and more.

Shall I list every founding father and their affiliation? Sure:

DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE:

Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

ARTICLES OF CONFEDERATION:

aniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Andrew Adams Connecticut Congregationalist
Richard Hutson South Carolina Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
John Banister Virginia Episcopalian
James Duane New York Episcopalian
Edward Langworthy Georgia Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris New York Episcopalian
Nicholas Van Dyke Delaware Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Cornelius Harnett North Carolina Episcopalian (Deist)
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
Henry Laurens South Carolina Huguenot
John Hanson Maryland Lutheran
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
John Walton Georgia Presbyterian
Nathaniel Scudder New Jersey Presbyterian
William Clingan Pennsylvania Protestant, denomination unknown
Joseph Reed Pennsylvania Protestant, denomination unknown
Daniel Roberdeau Pennsylvania Protestant, denomination unknown
Jonathan Bayard Smith Pennsylvania Protestant, denomination unknown
Francis Dana Massachusetts Protestant, denomination unknown
Samuel Holten Massachusetts Protestant, denomination unknown
James Lovell Massachusetts Protestant, denomination unknown
Henry Marchant Rhode Island Protestant, denomination unknown
John Collins Rhode Island Protestant, denomination unknown
Thomas Adams Virginia Protestant, denomination unknown
John Harvie Virginia Protestant, denomination unknown
John Mathews South Carolina Protestant, denomination unknown
William Henry Drayton South Carolina Protestant, denomination unknown
William Duer New York Protestant, denomination unknown
Titus Hosmer Connecticut Protestant, denomination unknown
Edward Telfair Georgia Protestant, denomination unknown
John Wentworth Jr. New Hampshire Protestant, denomination unknown
John Williams North Carolina Protestant, denomination unknown

CONSTITUTION

Daniel Carroll Maryland Catholic
Thomas Fitzsimons Pennsylvania Catholic
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
Nathaniel Gorham Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Langdon New Hampshire Congregationalist
Nicholas Gilman New Hampshire Congregationalist
Abraham Baldwin Georgia Congregationalist; Episcopalian
William Samuel Johnson Connecticut Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Madison Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer Maryland Episcopalian
David Brearly New Jersey Episcopalian
Richard Dobbs Spaight, Sr. North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Gouverneur Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Cotesworth Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Charles Pinckney South Carolina Episcopalian
Pierce Butler South Carolina Episcopalian
George Washington Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
William Blount North Carolina Episcopalian; Presbyterian
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyteran
Rufus King Massachusetts Episcopalian; Congregationalist
Jacob Broom Delaware Lutheran
William Few Georgia Methodist
Richard Bassett Delaware Methodist
Gunning Bedford Jr. Delaware Presbyterian
James McHenry Maryland Presbyterian
William Livingston New Jersey Presbyterian
William Paterson New Jersey Presbyterian
Hugh Williamson North Carolina Presbyterian
Jared Ingersoll Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Alexander Hamilton New York Huguenot; Presbyterian; Episcopalian
Jonathan Dayton New Jersey Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Blair Virginia Presbyterian; Episcopalian
John Dickinson Delaware Quaker; Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker; Episcopalian
Thomas Mifflin Pennsylvania Quaker; Lutheran

NONSIGNING DELEGATES

Oliver Ellsworth Connecticut Congregationalist
Caleb Strong Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Lansing, Jr. New York Dutch Reformed
Robert Yates New York Dutch Reformed
William Houstoun Georgia Episcopalian
William Leigh Pierce Georgia Episcopalian
Luther Martin Maryland Episcopalian
John F. Mercer Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
George Mason Virginia Episcopalian
Edmund J. Randolph Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
James McClurg Virginia Presbyterian
William C. Houston New Jersey Presbyterian
William R. Davie North Carolina Presbyterian
Alexander Martin North Carolina Presbyterian

ALL of the above participated in the development of these articles/texts. Of course Jefferson and Benjamin were Deists, and yes they carried major influence, but I’m sure you can view the above names and conclude, like any logical person, that the signers were OVERWHELMINGLY PROTESTANT.

Only two were even Roman Catholic. You call me a fool, yet you make such a comment as “ALL WERE DIEST AND SECULAR HUMANIST.” I’ve experienced many atheist who take these types of arguments, so you’re not the first. I cannot judge you for having any real moral absolute, so it’s not your fault you judge and call me a fool.

I’ll leave a conclusion and the above facts to stand for themselves.

As for the debate on Christianity and Hinduism, that’s an entirely different argument. For times sake, I’ll stick to what you first addressed.

PS: I was not indoctrinated. I became a Christian two years ago, upon a free-willed decision and conclusion that a single creator exists, and that my created purpose was to seek this creator. Your presuppositions sap your judgment. One of ym best friends was indoctrinated as a Muslin in Iran and came here to find Christianity. Millions of others are self-proclaiming Christians in India and China. Drop the silly indoctrination makes up all Christians stereotype.

PSS: I have read them. I have memorized amendments. You once again presume I have not. I study political science. As for interpretation, I leave it to those who interpret the Constitution (remember that Supreme Court)? They agree with me. You should read into the court cases.

PSSS: God Bless you.

SOURCE: ttp://www.adherents.com. Adherents is a site dedicated to developing religious statistics.

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3 thoughts on “Here’s a response to Adrian:

  1. Well Leonard,

    I came across this Blog and surely the good thing about it… and this topic is that you/we are entitled to have our religious beliefs and even how to assess the evidence about the Founding Fathers. But I do disagree with – not your statistics, (because they have a funny way of being presented differently by different people)… For instance, Thomas Jefferson may be on a list of names with Episcopalian/Deist next to it… but the PASSION and words and letters he and other prominent free thinkers of the time (and some others on the list) communicated on this topic, is swept by the way-side. “Nature’s God” was deliberately not intended to be specified. Yes, it was suggested… and by the grace of ‘God’… God was not defined. Did you know that John Calvin referred to ‘the Deity’ as “Architect of the Universe”… I assure you the term meant something quite different to Calvin.

    The intent was establishing an ideal that was yet ahead of its time, considering some of the Founding Fathers were (Christian) slave owners and women were considered property. The ideal/experiment promoted ‘the Rights of Man’… the innate Dignity of Man… as being ‘self-evident’. The Founding Fathers’ Humanist Ideal was the product of ‘the Enlightenment’ and underscored Tolerance… the absolute opposite and arch-enemy of fundamentalism. ‘Self-evident’ does not say ‘as is written in the Word’… but ‘self-evident’… (to man)

    My eyes are open to how falsely indoctrinated many U.S. professing Christians are to equate America’s birth/purpose as a Christian nation… almost interchanging the title Founding Father for ‘Christian’ as if this provides some legitimacy for being a Christian (American). Whatever the all of them personally believed, the end product of their labors was to create an ideal – such that the collective WE – wouldn’t be twisting their words and intentions… and it’s happening anyway.

    You say that you came to your Christian faith by a free-will decision on your part… Good for you, but then you are clearly out of the majority with respect to the many Founding Fathers who were members of different denominations, which largely held to historic doctrine that would consider your ‘free-will’ decision an anathema.

    What scares me is all the propaganda to swallow the pill that America is a Christian nation… and the agendas behind the propaganda. My hat’s off to Theocracywatch.org (if I was wearing a hat).

  2. it is unfortunate that too many non believers want to get in the gutter rather than deal with facts and discuss the subject objectively and as gentlemen.
    If they still disagree ,then that is the end of the debate, at least for that time.
    Nice Blog.

  3. Kyle,

    I wish I could respond to your comment, but my 100+ pages a day reading assignments for my classes restricts me in regards to time.

    I would disagree in your statement that the ideal product was merely humanstic. Although I would agree with the danger any form of fundamentalism offers, I believe that the declaration is clear in promting the importance that a Creator has in our established inalienable rights. I would disagree that their pure aim was humanistic, but rather a merge of democratic influences, and christian moral principles.

    The issue of slavery is extremely complex. Democracy is stained with it, but we cannot forget one of the guiding forces against slavery and pro-civil rights were the 2nd Awakening (Charles McFinney, etc).

    I think you truely blow the significance that Christianity plays in our government. The way our system is set up (With our 1st Amendment Practice and Elastic Clause), we’ll never see a Theocracy. Thats a fiery word with no more use than to envoke fear in Atheist and Secularlist. Christianity just proves as a morale framework in which politions draw their decisions from. It also plays a role in justify the creation of civil rights and liberties, as well as a historical role.

    I wish I could continue, but my New Testament Biblical Archaelogy calls (Zzzz)

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