Below is a copy of a conversation upon Shany Wong’s facebook status, involving an exchange of ideas amongst myself and two individuals. Posts were arranged to reflect the timeline of responses. Enjoy, and God’s Blessings, as well as to keep them in your prayers. All for His glory:
Shany Wong Faith > Reason
Steven Guarin its sayings like these that get twisted inside peoples minds, causing them to blow up abortion clinics with the upmost justification. I’ve been thru hell and back, and ive seen DEATH face to face, and none of you have been thru what ive been thru. Im a man of REASON, because in life i’ve learned only the weak incapable of reasoning choose faith as a means of escape.
Leonard Goenaga Faith is no means of escape. Your reasoning sounds way too introspective. Although I have no understanding of your pains and sufferings, there are many who have suffered more who have come to this understanding of faith. Reasoning is only a tool God has given us to further understand his character and creation. Man perverts reason by using it and his creativity to support whatever his desires, by creating subjective systems that justify his amoral actions.
I bet whatever death you have witnessed, and whatever pain experience, those dealing the death and dishing the pain may cite reason as the source of their action. Reason drove Stalin to murder tens of millions of his people. Reason drove Hitler to attempt extinguishing the jews.
The association of faith and weakness, is weak. Many a stronger men are there who would argue you otherwise. If anything, it takes genuine REAL strength to accept faith, as it is the great step of acknowledging your weakness, and sacrificing your cravings. Reasoning itself is flawed without Faith. Sure, you can understand certain segments of reality with it, and how it functions, but reason will not tell you WHY, merely HOW.
Aquinas knew this well. Reason can hint you the truth of natural law, but Faith in revelation is what will get you there, and ever more important, who put it there.
Adrian Rivera God exists? prove it
You put God on the dock, on the questioning bored, but it is our reason that should be put on the dock. If you expect me to use the medium of the world, and worldly things, to prove to you a spiritual all-powerful God exists, than you must see how unreasonable that appears. A spiritual being would need spiritual explanation, as a physicist needs the language of mathematics and science to explain physics. How far then can we get, if you will most likely cast aside an explanation of God for using spiritual language?
Secondly, he seeks fulfillment. He spends his entire life trying to find things that make him happy. Women, philosophy, partying, money, work, hobbies, sex, drugs, and the list continues. He tries to find something, or someone, to fill a vacuum in his heart, in his very being. Things, however, do not fit this vacancy. As such, he continues to search things out to feed his happiness, to give him completeness, only to find nothing fits.
God designed us to find identity in His son, and to find completion in Him. He created us to love him, and to have a relationship with him, and this vacancy and need for identity exists to help us pursue such in Him. It was our intended purpose: as is a car to drive, and an oven to bake. What good is a car to cook, and an oven to drive?
In order to love, God gives us free will and intellect, which allows us reason and creativity. Rejecting God, for the sake of loving ourselves (i.e. sin), we use this creativity and intellect to try to find other forms of selfish-driven fulfillment and identity, only to further flame the very problem, ourselves, and to come up empty.
A greater question is to ask whether you are a person, or a simple body. Are you merely a makeup of cells, and limbs, and organs, which reacts to outter stimulus? If such, reason would be hardly possible, as it is not an instictual reaction, but the ability to take knowledge, and weight it with opinion. Who is Adrian than? Is he a person of likes and dislikes, opinions, concerns, love? If so, all those concepts (which are vital to who we really are), are things not provable.
You cannot prove to me that you are Adrian, a person, not just a body, without describing to me your wants, desires, opinions, concerns, and all that is done in the language of will and reason. We can no more open you up and read your passions than we can use finite science to prove the things of the spirit. Hope that helps.
Adrian Rivera and what is it that makes you right? the fact that someone told you all this since you were born and you read it somewhere? you tellin me all the buddhists got it wrong? all the jews got it wrong? all the muslims got it wrong? everything theyve believed for thousands of years is bullshit to all of you because some cattle sacrificing primitives a long time ago decided to write a story.
Leonard Goenaga Adrian, in the question of who is and is not right, you’re highlighting the very answer. Man is at fault. I am not right, nor are you. God is right. Because we have finite minds, creativity, will, and selfish desires, we create an assortment of problems. We are the source of suffering, because we are selfish beings.
Truth is not relative. Black is not white, but rather a complete opposite of it. Cold is not hot. Right is not wrong. there is a very distinct difference in those things. Just because I walk up to you, point at black, and tell you its white doesn’t mean I’m right. Its black merely because its black, just as truth is truth merely because it is.
Yes, I will tell you other religions get it wrong. You can’t just assume they’re all partially right when they contradict eachother. Either one is right, or all are wrong. The claim are too opposite (having studied religion, I learned this greatly: the nature of the soul, monotheism, deism, pantheism, polytheism themselves are all opposites).
As I said earlier, man’s creativity, and desire to find fulfilment and identity, lead him to create religions and cults and philosophies and groups. If anything, this hints at something greater; where then, did this very ability to reason and create come from? Obviously not simply nature, and nature possesses none of these characteristics; it is solely identifiable with God.
This then takes us down a path of reason, which is an incredibly long discussion to show why Christianity is right, not because I say it so, but because truth is not a relative set of principles.
Also, to make the assumption that a bunch of people got together and wrote a story is incredibly simple. Man would make such an assumption to ignore what creater claims are centered in this narrative, which is hardly beneficial. I can assure you the bible is not a collective of musing from a small group of folk.
Also, don’t assume I was raised in a christian home with the convenience of people telling me what was true since I was born. How I wish we all had that convenience.
We are BOTH RIGHT, isn’t that beautiful? Stop Hate mongering man!
Steven Guarin wow leonard, are you even aware your entire RELIGIOUS views was plagiarized, it was the Egyptians who wrote the Book of the dead, and the so called 10 commandments. Read your history man! Your religious views does nothing but spread HATE if you disagree. I disagree with you, yet i dont write essays on why your wrong. We are BOTH right!
Leonard Goenaga Firstly Steven, calling anyone a freak will hardly do any good. To make the assumption I’m some type of freak, after having assumed anyone of Faith is weak, is poor poor reason. There are doctors who may have even treated you who are of such a faith, which would make your claim wildly of error. It would do you good not to assume such things, especially if we want to talk of things of reason.
So, again, with reason, we can conclude your presuppositions to be in error. It’s as illogical as me saying, because some hispanics steal, all hispanics must steal, and what then, is the good of hispanics? You obviously can see the substantial error in this. Why? Because you’re reason is not perverted by your presuppositions (such as your desire to despise christianity).
I don’t mean to insult you. I truely don’t Steven. I don’t even know you, but I love you none-the-less. If you wish to speak of things scientific and logical, at least use a reasonable approach to evaluate them.
Steven, I also studied the egyptian texts. I minored in Biblical Archaeology, Judaism, and Early Christianity. I can tell you, assuredly, that making such a simple claim as Christianity and Judaism was plagiarized to be false. I can sit here and write pages why, providing archaeology finds, as well as reasonable evidences, although I doubt we would hardly all sit down and read them, seeing the approach you’ve taken (I would like to know if you have read what I’ve written in full).
I can also honestly say Steven, that I think I may have read a bit more history than you, and I genuinely and lovingly mean that. I mean, I’ve read in full historical egyptian narratives that you may have never heard of, and have studied intensely on the different ages of the Egyptian kingdoms, as well as their believes.
But I do NOT wish to toot my own horn. I just want you to see you’ve commited some seriously unloving and un-reasonable assumptions, which are at serious fault, which should at least highlight how there is no perfection in this reason you’re quoting.
Also, medicine can only heal the wounds of the flesh, while Christianity, namely Jesus, heals something much more important.
Steve, if you read ANYTHING, and there is a lot up there to read, I would want you to honestly read this. What good is science to heal you of cancer, if you are to live an unhappy life? Who wins Steve? The man who dies happy in the knowledge of Jesus and salvation, welcoming death itself as a triumphal opportunity, or the man who is cured of cancer and lives a meaningless life?
What then, is the greater of the two? That which prolongs physical life, or that which provides TRUE life?
I pray you think of that well. I would also love to give you an example where medicine and science failed miserably, and faith (namely Jesus), made a fool of it all, however that is a personal thing which I would share with you in a message.
I will also give you an open invitation Steve. Instead of tossing up here various broad assumptions, I invite you, at any time, to contact me and ask me a question. If you truely desire a response, and not seek to just provide an opinion, I will share with you answers to specific questions (Why is there evil, what of the egyptian dead documents, is the bible realiable, etc). It is an offer that will stand, and you can email me whenever (LeonardOoh@live.com), or contact me on facebook. I will be genuine in my answers.